A Literal Journey

Patience Is Walking Forward With Hope 👣 Kaela Rivera on The Hungry Forest and Cece Rios

• Seth Adam Smith • Season 1 • Episode 27

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When our dreams *refuse* to arrive on OUR schedule, patience isn’t simply waiting—it's “walking forward with hope.”

In this inspiring (and hilarious!) episode of A LITERAL JOURNEY, I sit down with multi-award-winning author Kaela Rivera to discuss the experiences, family history, and years of persistence that have shaped her journey as an author.

Kaela shares the inspiration behind Cece Rios and the Desert of Souls, including the stories Kaela heard from her abuelo, her growing interest and connection to Mexican mythology, the terrifying legend of El Sombrerón (seriously, it's crazy!), and the question at the heart of the story: What would happen if people could see, touch, or control another person’s soul? 

We also discuss her forthcoming middle grade horror novel (yes, *horror novel*), The Hungry Forest—a story about about two grieving brothers who hear their deceased father calling to them from a haunted forest... (don't go into the forest, guys!)

Along the way, Kaela offers powerful advice about rejection, revision, grief, family connection, kindness, and continuing to hope when success takes longer than expected.

Whether you're a reader, writer, parent, teacher, or someone struggling through a season of uncertainty, I hope this episode encourages you to open a book (or pick up a pen) and embark on your own literal journey.

💀 PRE-ORDER the "The Hungry Forest" through the bookstore—The King's English—to get special goodies: https://www.kingsenglish.com/item/R888A8PhO_73dfYNm5BhWA

About KAELA RIVERA:

Kaela Rivera is the multi-award-winning author of the Cece Rios trilogy, LEGO DREAMZzz: Dream Chasers and the Riddle-Spokens, and The Hungry Forest (coming Aug 18, 2026). She grew up reading the folktales of her Mexican-American and British parents in the forests of Tennessee, but now she writes about them from the soaring mountains of Utah. When not weaving together stories, she works in marketing, watches anime, or busies herself illustrating new adventures. She believes in the power of hope and aims to write adventures that heal. Sign up for her newsletter at kaelarivera.com.

💀 ORDER "The Hungry Forest" here: https://amzn.to/4bjUHpR

🌵 ORDER "CeCe Rios" here: https://amzn.to/3T2tv8J

📚 CHECK OUT other books by Kaela Rivera here: https://amzn.to/4vzmsSk

🌐 Visit Kaela Rivera's website: https://www.kaelarivera.com/

🎧 LISTEN on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1CvEfBcK1xALUswAkOwlNf?si=98cea0829ca145e6

🍎 LISTEN on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-literal-journey/id1839517342

🎥 WATCH more episodes of A LITERAL JOURNEY: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRTQ34vyf-9NkrTcSH0KEwXPOhdVqZRVZ

Don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe to A LITERAL JOURNEY for more exclusive author interviews, book recommendations, and thoughtful conversations about the stories that shape us. 📖✨

#KaelaRivera #CeceRios #MiddleGradeBooks #MiddleGradeHorror #MiddleGradeFantasy #AuthorInterview #WritingAdvice #MexicanFolklore #ChildrensBooks #BookTube #FantasyBooks #HorrorBooks

Kaela Rivera

I think that the number one thing I recommend for all authors, um, and particularly authors, not not even just writers, um, uh and people who want to be to be authors is patience. Learning patience, practicing patience, learning what that really means. Because I think we think patience is just waiting around and doing nothing until something happens, and that's not what patience is at all. Patience is walking forward with hope and very intentionally keeping your eye on what you do want to happen, what you're hoping for, but still, but also being able to not give up on it if it doesn't happen when you wanted it to happen.

Seth Adam Smith

Kayla Rivera is the multi-award-winning author of the CC Rios trilogy, Lego Dreams, Dream Chaser, Lego Dreams, Dream Chase Chasers. Oh, that's a tongue twister for that.

Kaela Rivera

No, I get it.

Seth Adam Smith

Lego Dreams, Dream Chasers, and the Riddle Spokens, and The Hungry Forest, which is coming out in August of 2026. She grew up reading the folk tales of her Mexican-American and British parents in the forests of Tennessee, but now she writes about them from the soaring mountains of Utah. When not weaving together uh stories, she works in marketing, watches anime, or busies herself illustrating new adventures. She believes in the power of hope and aims to write adventures that heal. Kayla, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show. It is an absolute honor. Thank you.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, no problem. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Seth Adam Smith

So, for listeners who may be discovering you for the first time, give us a little background on your journey. What's your story and what first got you into storytelling?

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, okay. Well, in many ways, it's a long story, but I'll try to condense it, you know, because people got things to do. Um, so as a child, I I loved just making up stories in my head anyway. I lived a lot of things in my head, big imagination, you know, as the kid who made bows and arrows out of the bamboo in her backyard to go and find like dragons, you know. I was like, I'm gonna go hunt it down. Uh never nobody was injured. Yeah. No, just me when I was trying to make it. My parents did not know I had hijacked the knives and the and several other things. Um, but uh like I had trouble writing and reading um actually when I was younger, but over time and with my mom's help, like I want you to learn how to do this. You can do this just because you're not good at it now doesn't mean you won't be. Um, through that process, I got better and better and had to practice it more and more. And then I realized it was a really great way of capturing all of the like imaginative stories that I wanted to do. Um and I was like, wait, if I write it down, other people know it and can read it even when I'm not there. So I was really excited. Amazing discovery. Um, and then over time it also became like this really important outlet emotionally because I had very big emotions. Um, and I had very uh some pretty dangerous things, encounters and things like that as a child, um, and uh all through between and teen years and very difficult things happening um to friends and different things like that. And it became a really great place for me to take all of that high intensity of my life and put it down and process it and explore it. Um, and so then couple that with the fact that I was a stressed-out child as well, um, who really was like, no one will let me get a job because I'm only 12 or whatever. I was like, but I need to start. There's sweatshop laws. Yeah, darn these child protection laws. I want a job.

Seth Adam Smith

I want to work.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah.

Seth Adam Smith

And so I decided, well, okay.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, now, you know, driven mostly by anxieties and fears, right? But right, um, but I realized that like I I realized that, hey, you know, if life is a video game, I can put all my points into writing, right? And then by the time I'm old enough to, you know, be doing things, maybe people will pay me for that, or I'll I'll be in a position to be able to provide for myself or my family later with that. Uh so that's what I did. I just spent so much time pouring myself into these, into books and writing as a way of capturing like those highly imaginative stories where I spent so much time in my head, um, high intense processing high intensity feelings, uh, and realizing that uh this was a way for me to like really ended up being like a coping mechanism, right? Because I wasn't good enough by the time I was like, I would absolutely will be good enough to get published it like Aragon's author in high school. If I work really hard, at age 13, yeah. Yeah, I was like, it'll happen. And it did not happen. But it was like a great way for me to feel like I was doing something, right? Um, and you know, eventually I actually was like, no, I really do want to do this. Um, and it was both like sure, some of it was from stress, but a lot of it was from love. Like I just I just loved writing, I just loved stories. Uh, and by the time I I remember I hit college and you know, obviously the dream of getting of getting published in high school hadn't happened. Um and I still realized that I still ended up, I still wrote. Like I I had so many assignments, right, in in college, and I still ended up writing just for myself afterwards or in between homework or sometimes when I could, sliding it in as my homework. I'm like, you said write this many words. I wrote it on my thing. Um, things like that. Uh and I remember I had a call with my mom at one point where she was asking me, Do you think, do you still think that you can become a published author? And it wasn't one of those, like, my mom's not one of those kind of moms who's just trying to dissuade you from things like that. She totally believed in me. She's like, have a backup, but like, you know, I believe in you. So this was just a check-in. You know, she wanted to see uh like where I was with it. And I remember thinking about it and I was like, you know, actually, I don't know. I, you know, I don't have the like, I I will, it will happen anymore, you know, the high intensity. It wasn't driven as by as much fear by that point, I think. Um, and I was like, you know, I actually don't know, but I know that I'll keep writing and I'll keep trying because I just you leave me alone long enough and I'll write because it's something I love and it's it's good for me. Um, so there was multiple aspects to it as I got older that made it, you know, good for me and something that I wanted to to create and to share the things that I that I understand or were trying to understand. Like a lot of my writing is about um is about trying to understand things and then sharing those with people. Uh I write mostly for myself, but I do like to say that I revise for other people.

Seth Adam Smith

Yeah, that's wise. That's wise. And I I sort of loosely structured these interviews around the idea of the hero's journey. Joseph Campbell talked about the hero with a thousand faces, that there's this story of a hero we're we're hearing over and over again where they're they're called from the normal world and they go on an adventure and then they come back to the world in which they live with this either this solution or an elixir or something that helps the normal world that they came from. Um because I I see that pattern repeat over and over again in stories, but I also see it happen over and over again for authors who they're they're just struck by something, this drive, this story, this idea that calls them from the normal world in which they're living, and they go on this adventure, which is a brutal one to write and publish a book. Um, was there a moment in your life when you definitely felt the call to either write a particular story or take whatever story you had written and take it to get published?

Kaela Rivera

You know, that's such a fascinating way of phrasing it. And I agree with you. I think that we do find um those processes in our lives, not just authors either, but definitely in authors, right? Because it in many ways it's like, why would you do this? And you're like, Well, why would you do this? I like it. It feels important in my life. Um, and let's see, okay, well, I can think of there's one that I'm working on now, but it's probably too early to share about it. So I won't share about that one, I guess. But oh, I'm gonna have to check in later now.

Seth Adam Smith

Yeah.

Kaela Rivera

Um, but the the one that I can think of that most like best encapsulates that is probably Cissi Rios in the Desert of Souls, my first um published book. Um, it's not my first book. She was my tenth in like a line of because I didn't, if you ever uh know any much about me, like my writing journey, it I learned to revise for other people and I learned to later. I just would write book and move on to the next one with all those learnings. But Cece was the first one that I really um, well, she's not the first one that I revised, but she's the one that I learned how to revise properly. Um and I remember I felt called to that one um in many ways because I I'd had this idea of of souls being on the outside of uh our bodies and what that would be like. And there's many incarnations of that idea, like several books that I tried it with that it didn't work. I think it was the contemporary fantasy setting, something about it just really wasn't jiving. But the um there was this moment um where I went to visit my abuelo, right? Uh, and I hadn't seen him in in since I was like four years old, and I was in my uh 20s by this point. Um, but I I lived clear closer to him because he was in California, opposite side of where of the country where I grew up. Um and visiting him and hearing the stories about him growing up in Mexico and uh like his goat herd and watching his his uh tíos make their adobe house and getting lost in the cerros and uh encountering a burja and a curandera and different all kinds of different stories, um, and just what his life was like really it really did something to me in an important way. You know, I'm a happy, so my mother is from England, you know, a direct export. Um and um my my dad's from California, like I mean, he grew up in California. My abuelo was technically born born in the US as well, but like from one year old on, like he was a baby when he was in Mexico and grew up there. Um and so like there's a whole mixture inside of me. And getting to meet my abuelo felt like I got one of the pieces I was missing. You know, I love all of the other pieces too, but I there it was really special to get that piece, especially as an adult. It it really helped. Um, and getting all of those stories, I just kind of became obsessed with like Mexican mythology and different stuff like that. Um, but also a lot of the some painful things that were happening in our in my my life, but also my family's life and some like difficult uh difficult themes that ran through our family, particularly on that side as well. But um maybe every family in on certain degrees, but particularly uh more high high intensity. Um, and so I was wrestling with some of these difficulties at the same time as like really excitedly connecting with um reconnecting with my Mexican culture on that side. And there was, I was piecing the story together of these themes, and they all just coalesced so well because I discovered the story of El Sombrerón. Um and it's you know about a guy who goes and steals girls in the middle of the night with a silver guitar, and he's kind of impish in mythology, but like that's terrifying. I'm like, I'm not over that, you know.

Seth Adam Smith

I need to process what just happened.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, people are like, oh, he braids horse's hair and he's like three feet tall and he wears a really bad cat. Ha ha ha ha ha. Also, he steals your daughters in the middle of the night. I'm like, what? Back up, back up, back up. Yeah, I was like, hold on, you can't make this a silly character. He kidnaps women.

Seth Adam Smith

Cute little kidnapper of children. Okay, that's you know, yeah.

Kaela Rivera

I was like, wow, which is, I mean, that's very Mexican mythology, that like weird duality. I love it, but I was like, I'm kind of stuck on that. Um, and then I got really focused on that background, um, and was like, wow, that's a perfect villain. And then I suddenly started thinking about that story with the souls on the outside of your body, and was like, you know, that's kind of a perfect villain for that concept thematically in a magical world, because the whole question of if we had souls on the outside of our bodies, what would we do? Is such an interesting question because it becomes a question of consent and interaction and respect and things like that. It enhances what is already an issue in our world, you know, of how we navigate those things. But if you had could see someone's soul, if you could grab someone's soul, if you could affect and force someone's soul, what would you do with that ability and that power? And El Superon, I mean, the story of coming and stealing people from their houses in the middle of the night because he wants to, you know, you um, is like a perfect example of the the antithesis of respect for the human soul, right? Because it is a complete um overtaking of someone else's will. And I was like, wow, that's a perfect villain for that idea, huh? And then I was like, oh wait, that is the perfect villain for that idea. And I got really excited, and then I started thinking about like, you know, the main character and how to pull all that together. And so, really, it was like several different ideas over the past years of my life, as well as things I was currently going through that somehow just like pulled together and became more than they were alone, something that was bigger than all of their parts. And I loved writing that story. Um, like I I wrote the like the first night 10,000 words, I think.

Seth Adam Smith

Um, and 10,000 words in a night.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, it was exhausting for the record.

Seth Adam Smith

I don't think I've heard of that, but that's incredible.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, it was um that was very excited. I love those moments when it like bottle lightning. I think the most I've ever done is 12,000 words in a day. That one pushed me a bit too far. I think I got a really big headache, so I don't recommend it, but but the 10,000 words is a perfect way of encapsulating the the level of enthusiasm I felt. And that was for the first book. Yeah, and that was for the first book. I love all of the series, I just can't talk about it as much because I'll spoil it for people, you know. But like each one kind of just ended up doing that even deeper and in different ways, and really examining the things that made that were explored or the focus in the first one in different angles. And I really, really enjoyed that whole process. So um, yeah, I love like all of my books have a different kind of call, right? I think. Um, otherwise I don't finish them, right? But for for Cece, there was just so many things that made it so personal and powerful, and um, it was the first one that you know got me published and things like that. That it's definitely the one that I think of first.

Seth Adam Smith

Well, talk a little bit about that. I mean, we went into detail on the series uh a little bit and and the inspiration behind it, but that talk about, I mean, you've you've written it and then you submit it for publication. What was the weight like? And then what what was it like when you got the the letter that said we'd like to publish this?

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, that's a great question. Do you do you want me to talk about the agent side of that or the just the publishing side of it?

Seth Adam Smith

Well, I would say a little bit more on the side of because you know, when we get into the agent stuff, it gets a little bit more technical. I would say that's true, keep in mind like so. I get a lot of authors or people who are interested in publishing. And so kind of these this portion of it really serves to encourage people, like, you know, don't give up hope. And here's what that feeling is like once you you kind of go through all the writing and then you get it published. So that that aspect, less on the agent side, but more on the, you know, I was excited and then this happened, and then here was the result of that.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, okay, okay. Well, uh, once I'd gotten my agent and we went out on sub, um, I believe we went out on sub around, and that means we were submitting to different publishers um in the space, different editors, uh, different publishers. And we had a little list and we were really excited. Uh, I mean, I was simultaneously excited and terrified, right? You know, I was like, but honestly, I know a lot I've talked to a lot of people who were like, yeah, that was it's so gut-wrenching and terrifying to be on sub. But for me, at least at that time, I was like, I've been waiting for this for 10 years. I'm just excited to be here, y'all. Yeah. Um I was like, only update me when I hear good news, but I'm excited to be here.

Seth Adam Smith

Wow.

Kaela Rivera

Um, so we we go out um to about, I think we started with maybe 10, um, 10 to 10 to 20, you know, but I think it was the initial batch was 10. And of course, somehow the revisions that I did ended up lining up so that it was like right before summer when I went out on sub, which means you know, sub is like summer in publishing is just everyone vanishes, which I can't blame them. There, you know, it's a lot of work to do and and taking a break's nice.

Seth Adam Smith

Yes.

Kaela Rivera

Um, but I was like, okay, I guess I just won't really hear anything for a while. But it was so funny because almost instantly when it ticked over into fall, you know, like end of August, September, we suddenly heard back um from an editor at HarperCollins. Um, and I was like, HarperCollins, that was like one of my dream publishers. And admittedly, I didn't really know how to pick a dream publisher, but I just saw it on a lot of the books I liked. So I was like, Dream publisher.

Seth Adam Smith

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the name, I mean that you know the name right away.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, you know the name. And I was like, wait, I know who they are even. I know who they are. I've they've they publish books I know. Yeah, I know her. I know her. Um, and like uh so I hear back and we're really excited, and we get a call. And like my agent's like, all right, breathe. You're gonna get a call from the editor at this time. I'm like, yeah. And we set the thing and we're talking with her. Um, and that was that was a big experience to actually talk to an editor at a big house. Um, and they're interested in my book, you know. And I'm like, ah, um, and it was it was really good to know or experience that though, because it was also a like, don't forget they're amazing, big editor at a big place, and that's super cool. But don't forget that it's really important to pick who you're gonna be working with on a story, you know. And so my agents like, you know, make sure you ask her questions to figure out how you guys work together and you you're both feeling each other out. And I was like, okay. Um, and it ended up being a really great conversation. Uh, and because one of the things I I try to ask all editors now is like, what did you like about the book? Not just because I'm looking for compliments, of course I'm looking for compliments, but not just that, you know. Um, but what I actually want to know is what did you like about the book? Because what stuck sticks out to an editor tells me a lot about them as an editor, you know, and like what stuck, what they think the book is about tells me a lot about how I'll work with them. Because if they're like, oh my gosh, I love this story because it the violence, so well done, you know, or something like that. I'm like, oh, that's not the point of the book.

Seth Adam Smith

Then you know something about the edit.

Kaela Rivera

That's the one, that's the thing that got you, huh? I'm thinking that we just punch it up even more. And I'm like, uh, that's that's not really the point of the book. We want more graphic violence, more, you know, right, right. And I'm like, listen, I do, but if but if an editor is like, oh, I like this thing, uh, but I think we should decrease like the amount of violence here or the fights, and I don't know if those are really working, you know. Then I'm like, oh, that that is an important aspect of the book. You know, you know what I'm saying? The amount of that they what sticks out to them, what really matters to them in the book. If it's the same things that matter to me, then we're in a good place. Um, and that was the case um with this editor. So I was really excited. Um, the only thing was though, we hit a little hiccup. Um, she was a brand new acquisitions editor, right? And she's like, so there are things in this book that I know they're going to pick, they're going to pick at in um uh oh acquisition, in the acquisition meeting where all of the important people gather around in a big scary boardroom and decide whether they're getting your book or not. Um and I've never seen these. I just assume that it's a big scary boardroom because it is in my head.

Seth Adam Smith

Very long table, dark, dark room, no window.

Kaela Rivera

Everyone's got their fingers stealed.

Seth Adam Smith

A fireplace at the far end. Someone, uh the villain has a cat on his lap.

Kaela Rivera

The guy at the top front is going like this. Yes.

Seth Adam Smith

Very deep British voice. Yeah.

Kaela Rivera

Exactly. Um and so she's like, I know that there are some things in here that they're going to pick out. So what I'm going to ask is, would you revise this for these particular things so that I could take it to acquisitions and have its best chance of being acquired? Um, and I was like, oh, I've only ever heard of revise and resubmits, but that wasn't even quite what this was. It was a revise so that I can, um, which was like, yes, I will. But I I just need some some help strengthening it for the people. And I was like, okay. So I did that. Um, and we, and so she took it to acquisitions once it was ready, just a few months later. Um, I think it was like two months later, two and a half, maybe. Um You're asking me like a request.

Seth Adam Smith

I don't know the answer to that question.

Kaela Rivera

Seth, don't you remember the thing I never go to?

Seth Adam Smith

It's really vague. It's really vague. I'll have to look through my notes now. There we go.

Kaela Rivera

Um the so uh she took it to acquisitions, and then I get the call, and I'm waiting for the call like all day. And I'm at work and I'm like, you know, trying to focus. And I'm like, oh, the time's coming though, it's coming. And then my fake my phone goes off and I grab it and I like sprint to the nearest stairwell to make sure I can take this call. Um, and I get on, and it's actually my agent and it's not the editor. And I was like, oh, okay, is that bad or better?

Seth Adam Smith

Yeah.

Kaela Rivera

Um, but my agent starts telling me, okay, so they really like your book and they want to acquire it. And I was like, What? And she's like, but and I was like, oh no. What's the but? Yeah, yeah, but change everything.

Seth Adam Smith

Change every single word.

Kaela Rivera

Yes. Um, but what they actually wanted was um, so at the time, CeCe was actually a young adult novel, not a middle grade novel. Um, and what they said was that they thought the voice was young and they thought it would have a hard time standing out the story um in the young adult space at the time. So they thought that, but if I was willing to make it a middle grade, they thought they had a really good chance of marketing it well. And I was like, huh. And I was like, okay. So then I got on another call with the editor and we talked about that. And I was like, you know, convince me to tell me the reasoning why and what that would look like to you. Because there's some really important themes in this book about, you know, exploring uh uh abuse, consent, you know, how we treat each other, things like that. That I'm like that. If you want me to remove all of that, the heart of the book is gone. There's not even a point anymore, you know. Uh so we have this long, this it wasn't even that long of a discussion, but a nice thorough discussion about what that would mean here and there and things like that. Um, and what the conclusion was uh I actually by the end, I was like, I'm actually excited to make this a middle grade. I was like, actually, because I'd always wanted to write middle grade. I did know that. Um, I just hadn't expected it to be the thing I started with. Uh and so we have this discussion and we kind of like outlining what things are the middle grade and what things are to young adult. Um, some of the things like is there was a bit more romance between uh CC and the character Coyote, for example. Um, and there were a few other things. Violence.

Seth Adam Smith

Yeah. There is like a death tournament in the book. So we have to take that down a little bit, take it down a notch.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, I was like, okay, so I what I'm hearing is the 12-foot blood fountain thing I described when an artery is cut, that needs to go.

Seth Adam Smith

Like, yeah, I am not expecting it to go this. You're so chipper, you're so happy in this entire conversation, and then you'll just throw out these, you know, the gore and the violence and the 12-foot blood fountain. I'm like, wait, what? You know, when the arteries cut, it sprays 12 feet. And so I can see why they came and they said, So middle grade, you're gonna have to tone it down just a just a smidge.

Kaela Rivera

Pull it back. Yes, exactly. Um, and that actually gave me like a lot of practice in knowing the difference between young adult and middle grade and feeling that line, um, which is something I teach about now, even. Um, so like I'm really grateful for that. Um, and yeah, so like a lot of the thing, a lot of the things are still there that were there originally, they're framed differently now, um, or they're zoomed out. And some things were straight up removed. Like, no, no, we don't need to talk about arteries being cut. No, no, no, no, no. Um, and and the like, you know, some some characters I think even were lost in consolidation, but not too much. Um, it's very, very similar still to what it was originally, just much more middle grade.

Seth Adam Smith

Um, and well that well, actually, that sort of leads into a question that I was gonna ask anyway about resistance, because every protagonist along their journey they'll encounter resistance. And at least from what I'm gathering, some of that resistance was transforming what you had originally created into something new. Yeah, um, that could have been some of your resistance, but what do you imagine? What were some of the obstacles that you faced writing or trying to publish? And how did you overcome that?

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, okay. Well, there's several different there are lots of resistances um in the publishing industry, but there's also just so much like to be gained it through them, you know what I mean? Like I mentioned earlier that I was not a big revisor in any of my previous work. Like, I would just be like, oh, okay, I learned this thing, I'll do that in the next book. Um, but uh in CC, that's when I had to learn to do it all in the same book. Uh and so that was actually really hard. Like I did do the middle grade revision and it didn't seem that hard. I was like, yeah, this is fine. And then we had to fine-tune for because it was middle grade, we had to make it shorter and I had to fine-tune the world building at the same time. And that combo was very difficult. Um, I was like, oh, and I had to because whenever I revise, the book will get bigger. And I'm an overwriter, so my work is always I have to cut at least 20,000 words just about from everything I write, especially once you have asked me to revise it to like clarify all like clarify this and clarify that and this and that. And I'm like, okay, now it's 90,000 words, and they're like, ah, you're gonna have to get that back down. Um, so that happened with CC. Um, with our revisions, we I actually got it back. It was up at 90,000 words, and I had to get it down. And they're like, it has to be under 70. And I was like, okay, 69,996. I got it just under.

Seth Adam Smith

I did it.

Kaela Rivera

And I'm I'm like, it taught me how to get more mileage out of those things. I still get a little like too excited where I want to put too many things in for the word space, like that can be properly achieved in that like word count, but um, it taught me a lot about that. And it was it was difficult, and there were times where I was like, what if I can't do this? Ah, but I I was able to. And I think it was also just because I loved this book. I was really excited to be on the author journey, and somehow I just believed it would work out, and I I would just have to learn, and it would just be hard, just like reading and writing was hard for me when I was younger. But I've learned I could do hard things so I can keep going. I could just do this one too. It will just be hard. Um, and there was also things during that process that were like a little challenging in the industry itself. Like, for example, no one quite knew what to do with CC for a little while. I'm so glad my editor believed in it.

Seth Adam Smith

Right.

Kaela Rivera

Because people were like, Well, but where is this? And I was like, it's a they're like, I I've never seen a place like this. I'm like, you know, it's a fantasy, right? Like it's there's shape shifters. This is not a real place. I was like, and the places I mention in it are not real.

Seth Adam Smith

Right.

Kaela Rivera

Um, and so I had to keep telling people, this is a second world fantasy, this is not real. And then they're like, but when is it? It's so confusing. I'm like, okay. I was like, okay, it's it's a fantasy that's second world that is not based in Britain or a Britain-esque thing. And I love Britain, and I would love to write stories also set in Britain-esque areas, but this one's not that. Yeah, so it was genuinely like a bit difficult to get people on the this is a second world fantasy that is inspired by 1920s Mexico. And they're like, Well, why aren't there 1920s things? I'm like, because that's 1920s America things. It's not America.

Seth Adam Smith

It was a tough hurdle to overcome, but mental gymnastics for some of these people.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, I was like, like it, you know, at the time it was, you know, I guess more unusual. You know, we see a little bit more of it now. And CC, by when it came out, ended up being in this sort of cresting wave of um diverse middle grade literature um that was coming out, which was lovely. And I had no idea, and no one did, you know, until it happened. But um, like it was a little difficult during revision processes and trying to get other people to understand and pitch it, where they're like, Well, what is it about this? And I'm like, No, I understand it's okay. It's okay, I understand. It's hard, but it's not England. That's that's all, it's just not England.

Seth Adam Smith

So you have a new book coming out soon in August called The Hungry Forest. Could you give our listeners an idea of kind of what that that book is about, and then we can go into the detail of what inspired that?

Kaela Rivera

Yes. Okay. So the hungry forest is about two brothers who are grieving their recently deceased father. Um, and they're grieving in very opposite and not like not working well together kind of ways, right? And it's driving them apart. Uh, and then one day they hear his voice calling to them from the local haunted forest, the same one that he warned them never to enter because he was a search and rescue volunteer and have seen so many people go missing inside. Uh, but when they hear their his voice, they can't resist and they go in to try and find him. Unfortunately, in the process, they realize that they've entered basically a pocket dimension filled with cursed people, strange magic, and a forest that will consume them and turn them into trees if they don't escape by sunrise. And let's see, with the hungry forest, there's a lot of things that were really inspired that, but it was kind of another combo moment where like lots of different, lots of different things coalesced, right? So this one is my first middle grade horror. Uh Cece was nominated for a horror award for some reason, but this one's actually horror. Um, and it's like very thriller, spooky, scary um kind of stuff in it, right? Uh, and that's the kind of stuff that me and my nephews kind of loved growing up. So um we we used to bond over Five Nights at Freddy's, for example, like indie horror games, we would chat about them all the time. They knew I was the aunt they could go and talk to about it, right? Tell me more, tell me more. They're like, Did you see the new trailer drop? And like, yeah, did you see that one character in the corner? They tried to hide him, and they're like, What? You know, yeah. Um, so like a lot of the things that we loved about indie horror games are kind of things that I pulled into the book. You probably, if you know indie horror games well and you're paying very close attention, you'll probably be able to start connecting where some of these characters might be from or inspired from. But they're if you don't know and you aren't looking very carefully, you won't, you won't notice um, because they they changed a lot during writing. But um, like it's it's inspired by uh our mutual love of indie horror, I guess. Um, and it's it also is it delves into some things that are kind of important to me, some things that are, you know, like second generation um immigrant or for first and second generation immigrant experience, um, just a little bit here and there, things that are important to understanding why the boys are the way they are, and some of the difficulties in their relationship that come from their relationship with their dad. And their dad was a very good dad, but he still had things he had to wrestle with. Um, and they're finishing wrestling with it together. Um, I think there is uh a lot of important like sibling stories are always really important to me. So this is another sibling story, but in in a in a different direction, as they learn that grieving together is better than grieving alone, and that it's important to they need each other to get through this, and they really do need each other to get out of this forest.

Seth Adam Smith

Well, I think it was interesting because you know, I follow a lot of authors, um, particularly on Instagram, and that was this book was where I became aware of you because when you did the cover reveal, everyone was posting it, like they were so excited for you. They were so excited for the book to come out. But that's where I was like, I kept seeing your name pop up everywhere. I'm like, what's going on? Is this a coordinated uh a campaign? This was, I mean, it was all organic, but everyone was just so supportive of you and so excited for your new book.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, I was so grateful for that. Like, there were people were so kind to to some people reached out and were like, Can I help you with the cover reveal? Some people I reached out to you and was like, Hey, could you help like post the cover reveal today with me? Where's it's it's a little online celebration party. Um, and how many uh librarians and different people I know who are really, really excited? They're like, It's boys and a horror. Well, there's I know so many kids in my library who are gonna love this. So it was it's it's really exciting.

Seth Adam Smith

Because it's middle, it's middle grade, right? Yeah. And I was talking to uh Ryan James Black, I think he also follows you. Um, and he uh he was telling me, and I I mean it was it's so true. I've thought about it. I think I've referenced it maybe every time in an interview with middle grade authors, is that he says, if you want to restore your faith in humanity, which everybody needs that right now, uh, he says, just just talk to middle grade authors. Like there's no better community than middle grade authors. And even if they're writing scary stories, there's some heart and hope, and there's a future. There's they're they're tackling big emotions uh but with hope. And so I can't I can't recommend reading middle grade authors enough, just for that.

Kaela Rivera

I so agree.

Seth Adam Smith

Just two final questions. Um, I was gonna ask about you know what advice you would give to to writers, and then I wanted to ask about um uh a story that inspires you. But to the first question, um what is some advice that you would give to authors or aspiring authors or aspiring authors who wish to publish their book, but they're kind of feeling discouraged.

Kaela Rivera

I think that the number one thing I recommend for all authors, um, and particularly authors, not not even just writers, um, uh and people who want to be to be authors is patience. Learning patience, practicing patience, learning what that really means. Because I think we think patience is just waiting around and doing nothing until something happens, and that's not what patience is at all. Patience is walking forward with hope and very intentionally keeping your eye on what you do want to happen, what you're hoping for, but still, but also being able to not give up on it if it doesn't happen when you wanted it to happen. Um, like the hungry forest, actually, uh, I when I wanted to go out on sub with it, um, it was during that period where middle grade had a hard couple of years where they were like, we're not taking middle grade. And every publisher was like, we aren't taking any middle grade. And I was like, but that's the thing I have. And so, like, I legitimately I started to like it took about the two years, but it started to wear through me. And I was like, maybe I just need to pull this off and I need to just work on something young adult or something like that. I have young adult things I want to do. I guess I I just wanted to do this first, but maybe maybe I should give up on it, you know? And because of that, then then like my agent called me and was like, we have two offers. And I was like, Oh, that's really good timing. You know, I mean, but for example, if I pulled it off after the first 10 people said no because they're not taking middle grade, that wouldn't have happened, right? I was like, send it to another batch just in case, and I'll just wait. Um, and I'll try to be patient and wait for it to happen while I'm doing other things, but not not taking my eyes off of it completely. Um, and my hopes started to dwindle, but I'm so glad that that timing worked out so that I it wasn't when I had finally decided to pull it away, or things like that. Now, there's also something to be said for like acceptance, you know, it's okay to also just accept maybe it's not this one, but that for a lot of things, patience with yourself, patience with your book, patience with your career, patience on sub, a lot of those things of the ability to keep going, to not give up, um, and to not think that if it's not in this time span, it will never happen. Like that's an immense skill to have. And it really does pay off in books, especially in revisions and things like that, too.

Seth Adam Smith

Well, I like that. Uh what you I wrote it down. Patience is walking forward with hope. Um, and I got a couple things in my life right now not relating to writing, but there's a job search I've been working on. I mean, I was doing an interview with another author, and right before the interview started, this is last week, right before the interview started, like one minute before I got an email that uh we're sorry, we're gonna go a different direction on a job. And I was like, oh, and then I got to go into the interview. Welcome to a literal journey. I'm so excited. Yeah. But it's everybody, you know, just this is this is a literal journey, and it sucks right now. It's just anyway, here's it all. But I like that walking, it's it's patience is walking forward with hope. I mean, this the there's just nothing for it. Having hope is is the only thing that you it's the best option for whatever you're going through. It's just the best to have to hold on to hope because no matter what happens, hope is going to help you um help you walk forward better. Yes.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah.

Seth Adam Smith

Well, to that end, I I named this podcast a literal journey because I've seen how a person's entire life, their entire journey, can change for better or for worse because of the story that they believe about their lives. Um, so I do a lot of work in addiction recovery, and I've seen time and time again that people who believe a very negative story about their lives, it'll lead them in a very terrible direction. But people who even when they hit rock bottom, if they change the story they believe, they say, This is not where I want my story to end. Nothing has to change around them, nothing at all. In fact, their lives can be really bad. But because they believe in something different, they go in a different direction. Their lives can and and oftentimes do dramatically improve. It's a challenge, but I've seen that happen. Um, and that's why I really wanted to interview authors who are writing good stories, like Ryan James Black had said, writing stories about heart and hope. And then you said, you know, uh, patience is walking forward with hope. Um what is a story that inspires you to move forward? And this could be it could be real, it could be true, it could be fictional, it could be personal, but what is a story that really inspires you to move forward?

Kaela Rivera

Well, there's so many. Um there's both secular and religious things that are very, very important to me and have been like anchor stories in my life. Um, I think I will pick uh one of the most recent ones that's been added to my my canon of stories that matter to me significantly. Um, and this one is a secular one, and it is of the move, it's the movie. I know it's I know it's originally a book. Um, I still have not actually read it. It is very close to the top of my TBR. Um, but the the wild robot. Um I love that movie. I have probably that's the the Netflix.

Seth Adam Smith

Did they Netflix that one? That was Netflix.

Kaela Rivera

No, that one actually came out in theaters. That one, um, and I I bought it immediately when it came out. Um, I have watched that thing dozens of times by now. Um, and it's because there is something incredibly Powerful about the theme of it, which is kindness is a survival skill. That's at the at the heart of it. But also to be to watch the journey of Roz being this robot that does not belong in the wilderness, you know, that can't even serve its purpose because nothing will give it a task and it doesn't understand anyone and everybody's like attacking it because that's what the wilderness is like, is everything is at odds with each other on some level. And her being designed to be cooperative and helpful does not work in that setting, at least not for a long time. And she has to adapt and grow and adapt and grow and adapt and grow constantly, even beyond her own programming limitations, um, and resist her programming to become more uh than what she what she currently is or currently or was. Um and in doing so, she creates community and family. Um, she discovers love and feels it, and she fights against things that um would tear it apart. And that that whole journey is so beautiful. It's something that I remember, and I'm like, I just wish we could staple this to everyone's foreheads. Kindness, I know staple it to their foreheads, kindness tape, tapes kinder. How about that?

Seth Adam Smith

Tape, yeah, tape, yeah, tape. Going back to that graphic violence.

Kaela Rivera

Exactly. That's why there's so many fight scenes in my book.

Seth Adam Smith

Yeah, that was just you're stapling things to people's words. That's good.

Kaela Rivera

Yeah, I love that. I love that story. There is so much in it that is so good for the soul, and so much in it that is so good for for us as humans and as communities and connection, um, that it's one that I love to point to. And I love to to use that phrase, kindness is a survival skill. Because it is, it is true that if we all tried to operate in a way that that tried to care for all of us, each of us would be taken care of. And I think that that's a beautiful and profound thing to see that. No, is it easy? No. Do people will people always choose to do it? No. But uh it's possible and it is possible, and that gives us the hope to keep trying.

Seth Adam Smith

I love that. I love that. Um, for people who want to support you and your work, obviously they can go anywhere and find your books, but you know, where can they go? I I I was looking at your website. It looks like you have a newsletter, and then if they want to follow you, where would you direct them to go?

Kaela Rivera

Um, I would say follow me on Instagram. That's where you're probably going to find me the most. I usually get on maybe once a week. So if I don't respond to a message immediately, don't panic. I'll be there eventually. I just got to make sure it doesn't take over my life, you know?

Seth Adam Smith

Right, right.

Kaela Rivera

My newsletter usually is the one where I do things like uh giveaways, um, or I do things that like you get the all of the cool information about the next books or opportunities with previous books and things like that. Um the newsletter subscribers get it first.